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#arianne IRC log

Index of logs

#arianne IRC Log for 2010-07-26

Timestamps are in server time.

00:01kymaracan people with a 0.86 client please try right clickin a player
00:02kymarayourself is ok
00:02kymarajava.lang.NoSuchMethodError: marauroa.common.game.RPObject.has(Ljava/lang/String;Ljava/lang/String;)Z at games.stendhal.client.entity.User.hasBuddy(User.java:387)
00:02kymarawhich is a method i added this release
00:10hendriki messes my quest state up, karma does work for me, too when the quest was done before.
00:10hendrikseems like the updater is missing marauroa-3.8.1.jar in some sitautions.
00:12kymaramaybe its my fault
00:12kymarai would have done an update and then deleted some jars and done another
00:12kymaralike i think i did from 0.85 first then from 0.84
00:12kymarakiheru: you did one all the way from 0.70 didn't you?
00:13hendrikkiheru, do you have that file?
00:18kiheruyes, that's from 0.70. I don't remember if there was any difference when done from 0.85
00:19kymarai guess i just made a mistake. don't worry.
00:19hendrikkiheru, could you do the quest again?
00:21-!-CodeCannon [~Dwidge<(a)>vc-41-16-212-159.umts.vodacom.co.za] has left #arianne []
00:22hendrikkiheru, do you have marauroa-3.8.1.jar ?
00:25kiherusays it's 3.8.1
00:26hendrikgood
00:26hendrikdid you do the karma quest on test server?
00:27-!-Bluelads4 [~Bluelads4<(a)>p5B349A0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
00:28kiherua moment, I'll redo it
00:29kiheruit's visible after doing the quest again
00:30kymaraif you had not done it, it should not have shown
00:30kymaraso i don't think you had a problem.
00:38-!-kymara [~kymara<(a)>85.214.157.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
00:55-!-lachgeist [~lachgeist<(a)>dslc-082-083-236-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:02hudson_arianneProject stendhal_website build (11): FAILURE in 1 min 27 sec: http://stendhal.game-host.org/hudson/job/stendhal_website/11/
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: convereted message-c2s-createaccount to message-p2s-createaccount
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: fixed upper lower case of variables
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: implemented s2c create-character nack
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: added indices for P2S_CREATECHARACTER and P2S_CREATEACCOUNT
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: fixed message type check in readObject()
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: implemented message-p2s-createcharacter
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: implemented message s2c create account ack
02:02hudson_arianne* nhnb: fixed message type check in readObject()
02:19-!-Megajack64 [~Miranda<(a)>189.215.58.21.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #arianne
02:19Megajack64http://filebin.ca/qupuhe/TortoiseF1-M2-v1.png
02:20Megajack64:)
02:52-!-omero [~omero<(a)>host211-120-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: *bBzzZZZTTT*]
06:25hudson_arianneYippie, build fixed!
06:25hudson_arianneProject marauroa_HEAD build (156): FIXED in 1 min 14 sec: http://stendhal.game-host.org/hudson/job/marauroa_HEAD/156/
06:25hudson_ariannenhnb: fixed line endings (no other changes)
07:46CIA-68arianne_rpg: nhnb * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/actions/equip/DisplaceAction.java: fixed logging of source position
08:35-!-Megajack64 [~Miranda<(a)>189.215.58.21.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:43-!-lachgeist [~lachgeist<(a)>dslc-082-083-236-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #arianne
08:44-!-kymara [~kymara<(a)>85.214.157.120] has joined #arianne
09:03-!-CodeCannon [~Dwidge<(a)>vc-41-15-94-53.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #arianne
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11:05-!-omero [~omero<(a)>host42-185-static.54-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #arianne
11:06omerohello
11:08omeroI've tested the hoeing NPC on my local server and seems to be working ok
11:20hendrikomero, could you create patch and upload it to the tracker?
11:28omerohendrik, how about the .png ? Will the patch include it as well?
11:29omeromeanwhile I just checked out the cvs head
12:06-!-yoriy [~yoriy<(a)>62.182.51.174] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
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12:16kymaraomero: try it, see if your patch creation tool does include the png. it was something i questioned when we were writing that 'how to create a patch for stendhal' page on the wiki.
12:16kymaraif it doesn't and it's hard to add it just include it separately
12:18kymarahttp://stendhalgame.org/wiki/How_To_Create_Patch_For_Stendhal#Command_line is what you'd be using, i think, as you don't use an ide?
12:24omeroyep
12:24omeroI've just spent 15mins looking for that page, thanks kymara
12:31kymarathe wiki search feature is quite nice, on the side. it's the first result if you search for 'patch'
12:34omerommm... it's 2 new files and they wont diff (I'd need write access to the cvs repo)
12:35kymarathen that's rather easy for us to apply them
12:35kymarayou can just attach them i guess, if there's really no way to create the diff
12:36kymarai guess there are still modified files too - the zone xml file?
12:38omeroyes, semos.xml
12:41omerook, I'll prepare a nice .tar.gz archive with everything in it and attach it to a new ticket
12:42kymarathe limit for trackers is 288k or something
12:43kymarajust to keep in mind - it woudl be ok if you need to attach the image in a separate one say.
13:44omerohttp://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3034662&group_id=1111&atid=301111
13:46omeroI've included in the archive all the new and modified files. I thought it wouldn't make sense to include a patch for the 1 line change in semos.xml
13:53omerommm... [13:48] You see the w eapon of death - a scythe.
13:54omerothere's a blank space between the 'w' and 'eapon'
13:54omeroIll open a report
14:43kymaraomero: that looks good, thank you. I will have a try at applying that tonight
14:43kymarathere is a nice method setDescription for entities. For when you 'Look' at them
14:43kymarait wasn't on the wiki guide. I've been adding it to some npcs like you can see a more inetrestign description now for carmen, monogenes and nishiya for example. would you have one for this hoeing man? i could add it at the same time
14:44kymara*interesting
14:53omerokymara: you're right... I forgot about setDescription and noticed it seconds after I attached the file
14:55kymaraI can add the line in manually if you have a good idea for one.
14:55omerolooking at Karl reminded me I meant to set it to 'You see a man with a hoe, he's busy taking off the weeds from the soil'
14:55kymaraok
14:55omerohow's the animation looking?
14:57kymarai cannot check that. I just lokoed at the files, i'm not in a dev environment.
15:55-!-storyteller [~storytell<(a)>p57B74090.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #arianne
16:58CIA-68arianne_rpg: madmetzger * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/engine/dbcommand/WriteAchievementCommand.java: fix java doc
16:58CIA-68arianne_rpg: madmetzger * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/engine/dbcommand/WriteAchievementCommand.java: improve java doc
17:30-!-omero [~omero<(a)>host42-185-static.54-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: verso $HOME]
18:01-!-Wolfos [3ec2c8c4<(a)>gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.194.200.196] has joined #arianne
18:01Wolfoshi
18:01Wolfosanyone got the server working under OSX?
18:04-!-Wolfos [3ec2c8c4<(a)>gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.194.200.196] has quit [Client Quit]
18:07kymaraWolfos: incase you read logs, please hang round longer for a reply.
19:20-!-gummipferd [~yenal<(a)>df01ppp196.eplus-online.de] has joined #arianne
19:48-!-gummipferd1 [~yenal<(a)>92.116.56.70] has joined #arianne
19:50-!-gummipferd [~yenal<(a)>df01ppp196.eplus-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:50CIA-68arianne_rpg: nhnb * stendhal_website/scripts/pharauroa/common/net/message/message-s2c-createcharacternack.php: fixed class name
19:50CIA-68arianne_rpg: nhnb VERSION_00_RELEASE_86 * stendhal/data/conf/achievements/achievements.xml: deleted unused file
19:51-!-gummipferd1 is now known as gummipferd
19:51hendrik!hudson schedule stendhal_website
19:51hudson_ariannehendrik: job stendhal_website build scheduled with a quiet period of 5 seconds
19:53hudson_arianneYippie, build fixed!
19:53hudson_arianneProject stendhal_website build (12): FIXED in 1 min 32 sec: http://stendhal.game-host.org/hudson/job/stendhal_website/12/
19:53hudson_ariannenhnb: fixed class name
20:02CIA-68arianne_rpg: madmetzger * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/events/achievements/AchievementNotifier.java: split out notifying for reached achievements to separate method
20:15CIA-68arianne_rpg: madmetzger * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/events/achievements/AchievementNotifier.java: add a method to check for achievements on login without notifying for every single reached achievement
20:17-!-gummipferd1 [~yenal<(a)>df01ppp225.eplus-online.de] has joined #arianne
20:19-!-gummipferd [~yenal<(a)>92.116.56.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:27CIA-68arianne_rpg: madmetzger * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/events/achievements/AchievementNotifier.java: added summarizing message for player
20:51postman-botAdministrator SHOUTS: Hi, please logout within the next 5 minutes because the server will be updated. You can return in about 10 minutes.
20:51-!-lachgeist [~lachgeist<(a)>dslc-082-083-236-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:52-!-lachgeist [~lachgeist<(a)>dslc-082-083-236-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #arianne
20:52CIA-68arianne_rpg: madmetzger * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/ (2 files in 2 dirs): check already reached achievements on login
20:54postman-botAdministrator SHOUTS: Hi, please logout now because the server will be updated. You can return in about 5 minutes.
20:55-!-postman-bot [~postman<(a)>85.214.157.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:56storytellerUuuh, new release *being excited* ;)
20:56-!-omero [~omero<(a)>host114-229-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #arianne
20:57omeroah! new release?
20:57storytelleryes :)
20:57omero^^
20:57omeroyay :D
20:58-!-postman-bot [~postman<(a)>85.214.157.120] has joined #arianne
21:19-!-mode/#arianne [+o kymara] by ChanServ
21:20hendrikmusic medieval_harp was added in 0.82
21:20-!-kymara changed the topic of #arianne to: [ Stendhal 0.86 and Marauroa 3.8.1 released: downloads and FAQ at the server homepage http://stendhalgame.org ][ want to chat?: /join #arianne-chat ][ ANY QUESTIONS? Just ask and stick around in the channel, maybe an answer will pop up later ][ This channel is logged: http://stendhalgame.org/development/chat.html ]
21:21kiheruI have: stendhal-music-data-0.81.jar
21:21kiherustendhal-music-data-diff-0.82-0.83.jar
21:21kiherustendhal-music-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar
21:21hendrikbut there was no music-data-diff-0.81-0.82.
21:21hendrikyes.
21:21hendriksorry, i missed that.
21:21storytellerOh...
21:21storytellerhmm...
21:22hendrikso anyone who's base version is < 0.82 is missing the file.
21:22hendrikanyone who started playing with version 0.82 or later has it.
21:22storytellerhmm...
21:27storytellerI am offline now... Good night
21:27-!-storyteller [~storytell<(a)>p57B74090.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
21:30-!-menne [6dc0cd0f<(a)>gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.192.205.15] has joined #arianne
21:31menneHi!
21:31hendrikhello
21:31menneI just updated Stendhal, and now it won't run any more.
21:31kymaraOh, dear.
21:32menneAre there any known issues?
21:32kymaraWhat kind of error do you get? Perhaps you can paste it at pastebin.ca if it is text or upload a screnshot to imagebin.ca?
21:32-!-mode/#arianne [-o kymara] by kymara
21:34menneAfter agreeing to accept the certificate, a message window opens that says:
21:35menne"Something nasty happened while trying to start your self build client: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: games.stendhal.client.stendhal"
21:35menneAnd then I can press "OK" :-)
21:36kymaraOkay. Can you tell me please if you are running a download (from a zip, originally) or if you use the webstart (clicking play now on website)
21:36menneI have always used the webstart.
21:36hendrikor if you got it from some other source (ubuntu, playdeb, self compiled)
21:37hendrikmenne, can you try to start it again?
21:37hendrikdid it ask you for an update?
21:37menneYes, will do...
21:37menneSame behaviour, same message. I already tried it several times.
21:38menneIt only asked the first time (a quarter of an hour ago or so) today for an update, and I agreed.
21:39hendrikmenne, are you on windows or on linux?
21:39menneI'm running it on a Linux machine, btw.
21:39kymaraThat's right. We did a new release of 0.86 tonight.
21:39hendrikin your home folder there is a subfolder called stendhal and there is a folder called jar.
21:39hendrikwhat files are in there?
21:39menneWill check...
21:39hendrikwhat does jar.properties say?
21:40mennejar.properties content is: #Stendhal Boot Configuration #Mon Jul 26 21:28:28 CEST 2010 load-0.69=stendhal-diff-0.85-0.86.jar,stendhal-sound-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar,stendhal-music-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar,marauroa-3.8.1.jar,stendhal-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar,jorbis.jar,stendhal-music-data-0.83.jar,stendhal-sound-data-0.81.jar,stendhal-0.85.jar,stendhal-data-0.85.jar,marauroa-3.7.9.jar,log4j.jar,
21:40postman-botomero rented a sign saying "great job on the iconized settings bar. it just rocks!"
21:40mennels gives: jar.properties marauroa-3.8.1.jar stendhal-diff-0.85-0.86.jar stendhal-sound-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar jorbis.jar stendhal-0.85.jar stendhal-music-data-0.83.jar log4j.jar stendhal-data-0.85.jar stendhal-music-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar marauroa-3.7.9.jar stendhal-data-diff-0.85-0.86.jar stendhal-sound-data-0.81.jar
21:41*kymara smiles with pleasure at omero's sign
21:41omero^^
21:41hendrikmenne, that looks good.
21:41omeroI had to put it on a sign kymara :)
21:42hendrikmenne, please try this on the command line: javaws http://arianne.sourceforge.net/jws/stendhal.jnlp
21:42hendrikare there any errors in the console?
21:42mennejust a second...
21:43hendrikor please use pastebin.ca to copy the complete output.
21:43menneno, sorry, no errors in the console. But, same error message again.
21:43hendrikwhat does it say?
21:44hendrikin the console.
21:44mennein the console, nothing. The error message is shown in a message window.
21:44menne"Something nasty happened while trying to start your self build client: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: games.stendhal.client.stendhal"
21:45hendrikoh.
21:45hendrikwhich distribution are you using?
21:46mennedebian
21:48hendriki get a lot of message in the terminal window when i start javaws manually there.
21:48mennejavaws: Version 1.5.0 (Build 1.5.0_19-b02) Copyright 2009 Sun Microsystems, Inc.
21:49hendrikoh, that is really old.
21:49kiheruOoo, pretty old java
21:49hendrikplease just type: javaws
21:49hendrikThen in the menu Edit | Settings
21:50hendrikand in that dialog: Tab "Erweitert" (extended? / advanced? / extras?). the last one, don't know how that is called in English.
21:50hendrikSettings -> Java-Console -> Show console.
21:50menneMeinst Du "Befehl zum Starten des Standardbrowswers?"
21:51menneOK, "Konsole einblenden"
21:52hendrikletzteres.
21:52hendrikund dann nochmal ganz normal starten.
21:53menneOK, habe gestartet, und bekomme wieder das Message-Fenster. In der Konsole ist dann sowas wie ein Stack-Trace.
21:54mennesoll ich den hier reinpasten?
21:54hendrikgut, bitte poste den ganze inhalt nach http://pastebin.ca
21:56menneOK: http://pastebin.ca/1908773
21:58hendrikkymara, please renamed update.properties so that it is not found anymore.
22:00kymaraok.
22:00kymaramv update.properties update.properties.renamed
22:04hendrikkymara, okay you can move it back.
22:04hendrikthe problem is that stendhal-0.85 was not signed.
22:04hendrikso that thingy is not updateable.
22:05hendrikmenne, please delete all files in your jar folder.
22:05menneOK, will do...
22:06menne... done
22:06kymaramoved back.
22:08menneshall I try the webstart again?
22:08hendrikstendhal-0.85.jar in the FULL.zip is signed.
22:08hendrikmenne, yes.
22:11kymarayay menne, you're in game
22:12omerothere's an sql warning error on the page
22:13kymara'the page' ? :)
22:13omeroat least on the online players one
22:14kymaraurl please?
22:14omeroI cannot copy/paste right now
22:14kymaraall likely look ok to me.
22:14kymarahttps://stendhalgame.org/world/online.html ?
22:14omerotake 1 player (me for instance)
22:14kymaraor https://stendhalgame.org/world/hall-of-fame/active_overview.html ?
22:14kymaraah thank you
22:14kymarae.g. https://stendhalgame.org/character/omero.html
22:15kymaraplease could you make a bug report
22:15kymaraif you can't copy paste a screenshot will do
22:15omeroI will but not right now :)
22:15kymaranow that we released i am back to work.
22:15menneOK, seems I can play again. Thanks a lot, everyone.
22:18CIA-68arianne_rpg: nhnb * stendhal_website/scripts/players.php: prefixed status colomn
22:19mennebye then...
22:19-!-menne [6dc0cd0f<(a)>gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.192.205.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:19hendrikdoes anyone has ideas how to fix the broken update for people who used webstart the first time during 0.85?
22:47-!-Laguz [~Miranda<(a)>p57B0A448.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #arianne
22:52kymaraOh, I guess a patch from omero even just for one line in semos.xml would have been useful
22:52kymarathe file he gave was really out of date :/
22:53omeroops
22:53omerokymara, I can produce a patch
22:54kymarait's ok i just searched for 'hoeing' to find the line
22:54kymaraand replaced your one with the current one again
22:54omeroyes, I worked on the semos.xml from the 0.85 release not the cvs head I checked out earlier this morning
22:55kymarathere have been a lot of changes.
22:57omerommm
22:57omerothe webpage mysql error seems to have disappeared
22:58kymaraYou mean, been fixed?
22:58omerobut I'm noticing that all the icons on the panels seem to be half-size
22:59kymaraAgain I think being specific could help. The hall of fame people are smaller than the currently online players view for example.
22:59CIA-68arianne_rpg: kiheru * stendhal/data/conf/zones/orril.xml: Fixed incorrectly split reject message from the kotoch prison door
22:59kymaraor do you mean items icons, creatures icons, npc icons, background images, menu icons?
23:00omeroyep those
23:00omeroatlas, npcs, creatures,...
23:00CIA-68arianne_rpg: kymara * stendhal/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
23:00CIA-68arianne_rpg: Patch ID: 3034662, Hoeing NPC at Semos Plains NE provided by omero.
23:00CIA-68arianne_rpg: Thank you omero.
23:00omero^^
23:01kymaraI added the description though tweaked a bit to make it more english sounding
23:01kymaraomero: please make a screenshot, then
23:01omeroyeah sure
23:01omeroalter whatever you think for the better
23:01kymaraIt not that you accidentally zoomed and you need to reset?
23:02omerouhm
23:02hendrikokay, let's see.
23:03hendrikthe download of 0.85 is fine, both full and soundless.
23:03hendrikthe webstart stendhal-0.85.jar is unsigned.
23:03hendrikso is the data.jar, but i think data is not an issue.
23:03hendrikso updating to 0.86 mixes signed and unsigned classes.
23:04hendrikI think using a stendhal-0.86.zip will not work either, because the stendhal-0.85.jar will be placed on classpath first.
23:04hendriki should test hat.
23:04hendriki should test that.
23:06omerommm
23:06omerothe new setting bar is unmovable?
23:07kymaracorrect. technically: normally you move those panels with a title bar, this doesn't have a title bar as that would be a waste of space on such a tiny panel.
23:09hendrikbranching VERSION_00_RELEASE_86_REVISION_01...
23:09-!-yoriy [~yoriy<(a)>62.182.51.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:19hendrikpeople who download the new version will be able to play, but the next update will fail.
23:29CIA-68arianne_rpg: kymara VERSION_00_RELEASE_86_REVISION_01 * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/client/gui/wt/core/WtWindowManager.java: Inelegant but effective fix for [Stendhal] Losing bag under settings panel - ID: 3034884
23:34omeroare there creatures with intrinsic resistance to 'magic' i.e. resist better to 'dark' or 'light'...
23:34kymarayes
23:35omerohow one does learn about the resistence?
23:35kymaracan you guess some creature who might resist fire well?
23:35omeroI can guess that undead could resist to dark magic better
23:35kymaraatm the website would tell you. maybe in future when you 'look' at a creature you'll get more of an info box like the wiki boxes, that's written soemwhere in a request
23:36kymarai picked fire because i thought it may be easy to guess that
23:36omeroa fire elemental would surely laugh at fire attacks
23:36kymarahendrik is stendhal.jnlp cached locally or something?
23:37kymaraomero: please look up a fire elemental on the website
23:37kiherumost of the creatures resist the type they use, and are vulnerable to the opposite
23:37omeromakes sense
23:37kymaraso you can also learn about it just be seeing what they attack with
23:37kymarasome special ones resist all magic a little or do not attack with a special type but are susceptible
23:37hendrikkymara, might be for 2 minutes or so.
23:37kymarai.e. wooden golden and fire
23:38kymarahendrik: why can't we just tell stendhal.jnlp to laod a new starter
23:38kymara0.86 jar
23:38kymaraand they can update from then from now on?
23:38omeroI was thinking... you're in combat and you notice that your blows are less effective against a creature... you could get a popup like 'you have the feeling you're barely touching it'
23:39hendrikand we need to tell that starter not to load the old .jar files, which it would do by default.
23:39kymarahendrik: why?
23:39hendrikespecially it would do that before checking if there are upates or missing files.
23:39kymaraversion.destination.86 isn't defined yet?
23:39-!-Bluelads4 [~Bluelads4<(a)>p5B34A27A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
23:39hendrikit crashes way before it opens a http conenction.
23:41kymarawhy, it looks at local stuff before payng attention to use th starter jar?
23:42omeroanother thing I've been wondering is ... how's the decision taken about the drop rate of equipement
23:42hendrikkymara, it's the way it is.
23:43hendrikyou can see that in the pastebin.
23:43hendrikit complains about not being able to load the HttpClient class.
23:43-!-Laguz [~Miranda<(a)>p57B0A448.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Laguz]
23:43hendrikbecause it had already loaded the stendhal-0.85.jar
23:49kymaraok, i'm just trying to help but i dont know a lot about this.
23:49hendrikthank you, i appriciate it.
23:49kymaraomero: experience?
23:49hendrikour main problem is that there are files in the games.stendhal.client.updater package within the unsigned .jar
23:50kymaraomero: it's rather easy to see how valulable something is and it's ratehr easy to compare against other cretaures and you make a judgement, or at least, i do.
23:50kymarawe have some item rarity metrics which are interesting.
23:50hendrikperhaps we should force a manual update on everyone, that would be a good opportinuty to use the new cert.
23:50kymarahendrik: next release, though?
23:50hendrik0.86.1
23:50omerook, kymara ... I asked because I thought you were using some script to find out
23:50hendrikwhich we should have rather soon.
23:50omeroI mean based on statistics
23:51hendrikperhaps we can keep the old clients working somehow.
23:51kymaraomero: perhaps some people do but i tend to make the decisions based on experience.
23:51kymarahendrik: i think it'd be ok to force downloads but better on a new version
23:51kymarai mean on a properly new version that seems 'different'
23:52kymaraif it's optional. if we have to, we should, of course.
23:52kymarabut i think we could wait till 0.87 to force it?
23:52kymarahaving said that i guess not many have already updated to 0.86 so to them it'll still look like a big change version.
23:53omerokymara, I'd like to expose a couple of thoughts on that... but now isn't the right moment maybe
23:56omerobtw, I've been checking all locations for the pie maker npc twins ... the ados market definitely need more life :)

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