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Important topics

  • Prioritising new features
  • Server side stability
  • Client refactoring
  • Wiki reorganisations

Decisions taken

  • Put new features into a game as a test of what Marauroa 2.0 offers
  • Use safe examples with few dependencies such as ImageViewer and Guilds
  • Private texts will start to use RPEvent in the next release so a high risk example is also tested
  • Enforce test cases for server
  • Make tests pass
  • Discuss making Stendhal tests not dependent on having a database
  • Implement timeout code in Marauroa to deal with related bugs in live server
  • Make some server side cleanup of half finished code
  • Continue to allow developers to commit unfinished work to HEAD but publicise impending release so cleanup can be done
  • Write a design proposal for client so that it can be fixed and refactored
  • Windows taken off main map window
  • Reorganise wiki to make information more accessible for both players and developers (which also cleans it up)
  • NPC sections on wiki need work
  • World history is desirable
  • In addition to proposed template, add Admin section and split Contributor parts to Coder / Maps / GFX
  • On refactoring code, developer should update wiki


<mblanch_> *******        Developers meeting on 2007/12/18
<mblanch_> kymara: all yours :)
<kymara> i'll grab the agenda						[19:02]
<kymara> Proposed agenda is:
<kymara> - Prioritising new features
<kymara> - Improving stability of server
<kymara> - Client refactoring
<kymara> - Wiki reorganisations
<kymara> - any other business
<kymara> So lets start with 'Prioritising new features' - hendrik, this was
	 proposed by you, so could I pass the topic to you?		[19:03]
<hendrik> with Marauroa 2.0 we have lots of new possibilities.		[19:05]
<hendrik> - we now have a way store information in a non-player way
<hendrik> - we can now send more than one event per type to the client in one
	  single turn (RPEvent)
<hendrik> - statistics information is written to the database and could be
	  presented by the new website					[19:06]
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<hendrik> - ...
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*** MartinF (n=martin-f@reactos/developer/MartinF) has joined channel #arianne
<MartinF> hello
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<MartinF> sorry, i'm a bit late						[19:07]
<kymara> np, arianne[eye] is logging
<hendrik> we have some unfinished features which are depending on this, or
	  could be rewritten in a cleaner way.
<hendrik> - guilds
<hendrik> - attacking multiple enemies at the same time
<hendrik> - showing images on the client to examine items or similar things
	  (mostly finished)						[19:08]
<hendrik> - house buying
<mblanch_> - magic
<hendrik> - private/guild storage in player houses
*** vspr_away ( is
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<mblanch_> - new RP
<hendrik> - player rented signs.					[19:09]
<hendrik> we should discuss about dependencies of these things.
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<hendrik> perhaps i should add some information about the current state.
<mblanch_> sure								[19:10]
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<hendrik> the "more than one event per turn thingy" (called RPEvent) is
	  currently used for three different things in head
<hendrik> - the image viewer / the FSM transition graphs (both implemented by
	  tim)								[19:11]
<hendrik> - private texts.
<hendrik> the first two things are new features with very little risk
<hendrik> private text, however, is part of the basic infrastructure.
<kymara> risk == risk of memory leak? (and such)			[19:12]
<hendrik> risk of breaking anything.
<kymara> k
<mblanch_> I have to add that RPEvents are useful for the rest of things
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<mblanch_> For example (mainly)
<mblanch_> Combat
<mblanch_> Damages
<mblanch_> Poison							[19:13]
<mblanch_> Eating
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<mblanch_> In fact it will simplify all the handling of these things in server
<hendrik> FSM transition graphs is a GM only features, image viewer is
	  currently only used by Monogenes and could be disabled easily.
<hendrik> this i mean with little risk.
<hendrik> broken private_text is a widly used feature which will automatically
	  get lots of testing after the next release.			[19:14]
<hendrik> i would like to wait until after the release before refactoring
	  other code to use RPEvents.
<hendrik> important code, i mean; small new features should already use it;
	  but the ones that mblanch_ mentioned should wait until after 0.66.
<kymara> sounds good hendrik although i already had the feeling sen private
	 text was a little broken
<hendrik> after the change or before?
<kymara> so we might see problems, which already existed?
<durkham> private_text is server side covered widely by tests, ( implied in
	  the tests of other things )
<kymara> before, i think. i made a bug report at the time
<mblanch_> Sure, the point of adding RPEVent on combat would be to implement
	   the new RP system						[19:16]
<hendrik> or to make the current one cleaner.
<mblanch_> I think the current combat system doesn't worth more effort (
	   although the new one would mean lots of work )=
<durkham> i think all effort to make code cleaner / easier to refactor is
	  worth the effort						[19:17]
<mblanch_> IMHO we shouldn't introduce new features until we are able to
	   consolidate the existing ones.				[19:19]
<kymara> we already know we can't start work on a new rp particularly soon. in
	 fact the start date of that could be a long long way off. so i do
	 htink it's a good idea to get the current code as stable as possible
	 (which is the next item on the agenda - but we're not finished on
	 this one)
<hendrik> we need to learn how to use the new things in a good way.
<MartinF> hendrik, is there a release note stating what exaclty is new and how
	  to use it?							[19:20]
<Oslsachem> yes, refactoring the old code to make use of the new features of
	    marauroa could provide valuable experience for writing the new
	    features from scratch
<mblanch_> hendrik: Agree. I will try to write a mini-game to show all the new
	   features ( RPEvents, RPLinks, objects id, zone storage, invisible
	   objects and RPClass new features )
<mblanch_> MartinF: not, there is no.
<kymara> mblanch_: why not put them in stendhal
<mblanch_> MartinF: you can read the javadocs that are good IMHO.	[19:21]
<kymara> with simple features like zone storage being the house storage
	 hendirk mentioned
<durkham> why not write a how to ?
<mblanch_> kymara: because stendhal is already complex
<hendrik> i am a bit scared of implementing things in a closed room, i prefer
	  adding things step by step over a longer period.
* durkham agrees with hendrik
<kymara> me too. i like what you suggested
<kymara> i'm not clear on one thing, hendrik. which is to what extent having
	 private texts in 0.66 really tests them			[19:22]
<mblanch_> durkham: I tried to write it on the javadocs
<kymara> if it makes some kind of memory leak or causes overflows or
	 somehting, will we know it's from that?
<durkham> hendrik with your experience on the rpevent do you feel like writing
	  a mini howto ?
<hendrik> the api of marauroa is pretty clear but the way to use it in
	  Stendhal is not.						[19:23]
<hendrik> durkham, yes at least party, i am still in the process of thinking
	  of a good way to integrate it.
<hendrik> partly
<hendrik> the server side seems good now.
<hendrik> but Stendhal client needs some supporting code for it.	[19:24]
<mblanch_> RPEvent sustitute everything that is (add attribute, send to
	   client, remove attribute)
<hendrik> once we have that, it would be much easier.
<durkham> i think that would be a big help, maybe add it to the code design
	  thing (<-- wiki reorg sorry )
<mblanch_> I am a bit lost with MVC changes of client
<hendrik> we all are.
<durkham> i am getting it step by step					[19:25]
<hendrik> the current client code is just a loop with IFs inbetween, but we
	  need some way of dispatching events to listeners.
<MartinF> is it only too complex too understand or is the client really buggy?
<hendrik> MartinF, there are lots of started and unfinished refactorings.
<MartinF> ok
<durkham> isnt that client refactoring topic ?
<hendrik> MartinF, the client code is stable, but unmaintable.
<MartinF> yes it is durkham :)
<Oslsachem> but there's always the high coupling :)
<mblanch_> I feel server code is hard to maintain too
<mblanch_> Nevermind I am too biased to do a major rewrite of Stendhal :)
<durkham> mblanch server side is getting better and better		[19:27]
<kymara> have we decided anything on our current topic
<mblanch_> durkham: Yes, I agree
<durkham> hendrik rocks ? :-D
<kymara> the next one is server side stability so we leave that till then
<kymara> currently: Prioritising new features
<hendrik> i proposed that we postpone refactoring of existing core code to use
	  RPEvents is postponed until after next release.
<mblanch_> question: would there be any way of having stable/devel versions?
<durkham> and you requested implementation of something in the client
<hendrik> private_text, image viewer and fsm transitions are the current
<mblanch_> My main concern is that any change I do may break everything ( like
	   I did on 2.O )
<durkham> (20:24:14) hendrik: but Stendhal client needs some supporting code
	  for it. <-- this						[19:29]
<MartinF> you can always run the tests to see if it breaks something, mblanch?
<mblanch_> On the other hand, having a development branch didn't helped at all
	   as it was hard (impossible?) to keep it synced with main
<mblanch_> MartinF: test don't test on Stendhal :P
<MartinF> but you could use that of stendhal				[19:30]
<durkham> mblanch i do not believe in developement branches other than we have
	  it now
<hendrik> kymara, i suggest, that we discuss the stability things first and
	  then return to priorising features as we are unable to stay on topic.
<kymara> sure
<mblanch_> At least marauroa test passes and test most of the code and also I
	   wrote test for bugs discovered lately.
<kymara> ient or server next?
<kymara> *client
<mblanch_> hendrik: agree.
<mblanch_> kymara: Stendhal stability
<durkham> server next as client is stable but ugly			[19:31]
<kymara> ok, so Improving stability of server as next topic
<hendrik> we did only have one single major bug in Stendhal (client and
	  server) in the last month.					[19:32]
<hendrik> but we have had some serious trouble with server crashes because of
	  problems in marauroa.
<hendrik> error isolation is pretty good in stendhal.
<kymara> it's a problem that so few people understand marauroa
<kymara> (imho)								[19:33]
<hendrik> marauroa tests: 131 ignored: 21, erros: 5, failures: 1
<mblanch_> ???
<mblanch_> Most of the problems from marauroa come from two souces:	[19:34]
<durkham> that is also "we cannot test without database " stuff ( we have some
	  of them in stendhal too )
<hendrik> some of the test seem to fail because of database, other run on
	  their own but not grouped.					[19:35]
<mblanch_> 1) Concurrency. New server is more concurrent that the 1.x branch
	   so there has been so ConcurrectComodificationExceptions that should
	   be fixed now but I plan to seriously review the whole server
<hendrik> just a quick look.
<mblanch_> 2) New network code.						[19:36]
<mblanch_> The new network code should work, but seems to be causing problems
	   with disconnections. I am working on that issue.
<hendrik> connection timeout.						[19:37]
<mblanch_> hendrik: I wrote test to test database presence, so once they are
	   run they should fail if no database.
<mblanch_> BTW My request is not to hide bugs as much as possible.
<mblanch_> I could write a timeout thing for marauroa to disconnect those
<mblanch_> but perhaps it is more interesting to really know why those players
	   get the problem and fix that instead ( imho )		[19:38]
<Oslsachem> but anyway you can't prevent that a player gets disconnected if
	    her line goes down, no? :/					[19:39]
<kymara> sure but what if that can only be done in 6 months time?
<hendrik> what i mean with "error isolation" that an error in one
	  NPC.ChatAction does not cause problems in other NPCs.
<kymara> in the meantime, a short term solution for such things, although
	 hiding the bug, is better for the game (i think)
<mblanch_> Oslsachem: that should be handled.
<Oslsachem> I mean a timeout thing would always be necessary for some cases :/
<kiheru> it can't be fixed. connections can break independent of stendhal
<hendrik> mblanch_, the network problem is caused by TCP not beeing designed
	  for dynamic ip-address.					[19:40]
<MartinF> mblanch: of course both is inmportant: the server should be able to
	  handle any client crashes and the client should not cause any
	  problems itself
<hendrik> MartinF, the server does handle client crashes.
ERC> /msg MartinF glad you came btw					[19:41]
<hendrik> MartinF, because in this case the connection is closed by the
	  operating system.
<durkham> ISP for example
<Oslsachem> and what if the operating system itself crashes?		[19:42]
<mblanch_> Nevermind, I will have timeouts implemented back on January
<mblanch_> Meanwhile, ... :\
<kymara> aw sorry mblanch_
<kymara> is there anything else we should discuss about anything else we plan
	 to do (or should do) for stabilising the server?		[19:44]
<mblanch_> Yes
<mblanch_> First:
<mblanch_> 1) Enforce test cases
<durkham> :-)
<mblanch_> 2) Enforce test to pass
<durkham> even without database
<mblanch_> Database is an integral part of marauroa so some parts of it do
	   need a database to run a correct test.			[19:45]
<mblanch_> Perhaps that shouldn't be the case of stendhal on the other hand.
<durkham> mblanch i will be happy to discuss this topic another day
<mblanch_> 3) We do really need to make a difference between things that are
	   half-done/development and things that goes into the stable
	   branch/server.						[19:46]
<kymara> why not use the unstable development branch
<mblanch_> hard to maintain in sync with head
<durkham> and we have the 'stable' released branches and head		[19:47]
<kymara> what if every commit to head if then diffd and syncd with unstable?
<kymara> i guess so durkham that is true
<kymara> *is then diffd
<durkham> kymara that is load of additional work, and things are drifting very
	  fast.								[19:48]
<kymara> ok so where does the difference mblanch mentioned in 3) come in?
<kymara> at our last meeting we tried to enforce that unfinished / half done
	 stuff stays on your local copy
<kymara> until it's ready
<durkham> if we were in a state were the maintainability of the stable branch
	  was given, we could have developers branches
<mblanch_> kymara: It is the same problem.				[19:49]
<durkham> yes kymara that is what i still do , and the last week was really
<mblanch_> Code change so fast the often when you complete and you are going
	   to commit it you get lots of conflicts
<hendrik> i am afraid that this will result in the same problems we have with
	  the marauroa 2.0 integration.
<kymara> let us assume we have a team of developers who do not start one thing
	 then move to the next, leaving projects half done. then provided we
	 are not close to release time, it should be safe to commit half done
	 stuff								[19:50]
<MartinF> so the only solution might be: leave all on the main branch and be
	  very carefull for any change to commit?
<kymara> as the other half *will* be finished
<kymara> MartinF: is what you said like what i said?			[19:51]
<mblanch_> MartinF: that freeze development
<durkham> i thought that was standard to be carefull before commit :-)
<MartinF> sure durkham, this should also be the current way of things	[19:52]
<durkham> i agree to kymara that it depends on how discciplined we are
<MartinF> kymara: yes it is compatible to what you said :)		[19:53]
<hendrik> another aproach is to do only small things; splitting larges once
	  into a couple of small once.
<mblanch_> hendrik:
<mblanch_> That approach won't work with some of the changes I had in mind (
	   that I skipped after all the 2.0 problems )
<mblanch_> For example the new combat system				[19:54]
<hendrik> why not?
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<mblanch_> hendrik: because it changes several parts of the project	[19:55]
<hendrik> but it consists of a number of aspects, which could be implemented
	  one after the other.						[19:56]
<MartinF> may be a concrete example might help: i proposed the extension of
	  conversation parser to make possible even more flexible NPC
	  conversation - i intend to do this changes in a completely new,
	  renamed conversationparser class before changing anything in the
	  quests using the old one
<MartinF> so this would be a stretegy to test new features without breaking
	  old ones							[19:57]
<MartinF> if it is finished and successfully tested, it can replace the old
	  class								[19:59]
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<Oslsachem> cross-cutting concerns					[20:00]
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<MartinF> well, it's not a solution for all problems :)			[20:02]
<kymara> so, except for some very big tasks, which are not planned to be taken
	 on right away, we agree that HEAD can be used as a place to commit
	 even half done work. Because all our developers know the importance
	 of finishing projects beforemoving onto the next.
<durkham> yes								[20:03]
<kymara> and those of us who plan releases will be sure to advertise the
	 impending release date so that developers know to 'tidy up' and make
	 only very safe commits
<kymara> or bug fixes
<MartinF> ok
<hendrik> mblanch_, i changed the way ChatConditions and ChatActions are used
	  in quests. This was done over the period of about 4 weeks.
<kymara> probably in fact there will be another developer meeting before work
	 on the new rp starts
<hendrik> we should think about removing or reverting half done things in case
	  they are neglated.
<kymara> yes, indeed. i've always felt a bit funny about guilds for exmaple
<kymara> i guess the motto should be 'be bold, but communicate' ?	[20:04]
<hendrik> yes
<kymara> can an IDE help with identifying unused or half done parts of the
<hendrik> no								[20:05]
<mblanch_> no
<MartinF> difficult
<kymara> ok :) was worth a try ;)
<kymara> are we done on server side stability?
<durkham>  coverage tool could give hints				[20:06]
<kymara> eclemma?
<durkham> for example
<hendrik> i think we pretty much know which code we like and which code we
	  don't like.
<durkham> but it is only hint
<mblanch_> I agree with hendrik
<kymara> ok, you do :P							[20:07]
<durkham> i doubt
<kymara> you could make a wiki page for anyone who doesn't, if you want to
	 delegate some of the removals
<mblanch_> Removals can't be done
<durkham> that is why i started on that wiki code standard thing
<mblanch_> Because there are things half done on both client and server and
	   removing them can only add problems (IMHO)			[20:08]
<hendrik> ok, we cannot remove deathmatch, but we could remove guild (but more
	  on that later)
<hendrik> the only other part i am frustrated with on server side is bank.
<mblanch_> hendrik: yes, it is a very ugly hack
<MartinF> durkham, this one?
<hendrik> yes
<mblanch_> RPLink may solve it but I need to test it first on a real
	   enviroment.							[20:10]
<hendrik> creature logic could be improved, too. but this is not something
	  that got worse by refactoring.
<mblanch_> Most of server code can be improved to use teh Turn Listener
	   instead of polling						[20:11]
<mblanch_> And that's mean a major redesign of the architecture that I wrote.
<durkham> when thinking of creaturelogic i think of behaviour classes .
<mblanch_> durkham says it can be done by refactorings...
<durkham> yes
* hendrik agrees
<mblanch_> Main problem of stendhal is success :D			[20:12]
<mblanch_> I wrote it as a hack to test Marauroa 1.x zone change feature and
	   ended up being a fun game :P
<hendrik> then we need 3D.
<hendrik> and no camping vulnerabitly
<durkham> i dont think 3d would help kepp success down.
<Oslsachem> 3D as in graphics?						[20:13]
<kymara> we'd lose the lovely graphics kiheru drew :(
<Oslsachem> WoW?
<mblanch_> Anyone played Zelda DS?
<durkham> statement : i dont want 3d graphics
<mblanch_> We can't afford 3d graphics
<hendrik> the project (as in people) simply could cannot handle it	[20:14]
<Oslsachem> I thought MVC could allow 2D or 3D, too optimistic? :)
<mblanch_> Oslsachem: tooooo optimistic :P
<hendrik> the MVC in client is not related to that.
<durkham> that was the big picture we all did not get ;-)
<Oslsachem> oh all the MVC happens in the client? :/
<hendrik> MVC is a client pattern.					[20:15]
<kiheru> real 3d would take redoing all the maps too
<hendrik> THIS WAS A JOKE
<kymara> hehehe								[20:16]
<durkham> lol
<kymara> hendrik needs emoticons :P
<mblanch_> germans don't use emoticons
<mblanch_> XD
<durkham> :-) ;-) :-D :-* <-- here you are
<mblanch_> :P
<kiheru> everyone is used to hendrik being serious
<Oslsachem> yes, hendrik, you had me reading the wikipedia article
<durkham> they were for hend						[20:17]
<kymara> where were we? Bank?
<hendrik> timothyb89, are you already here?
<mblanch_> kymara: I feel bank is my duty				[20:18]
<kymara> he's not usually here for another couple of hours
<kymara> ok mblanch_
<mblanch_> I tried to rewrote equip/drop actions
<mblanch_> as bank is related to it.
<durkham> about 10 pm utc i think i timmy time				[20:19]
<kymara> hendrik did you have any refactoring of bank planned, yourself?
<Oslsachem> about client stability I think the client had problems when it had
	    to display more than a certain number of entities?
<durkham> client is wide more problematic than that
<kymara> next topic is client refactoring
<kymara> if we're finished on server side we can move onto it. are we?
*** mblanch_ ( is now known as
    arianne_rpg								[20:20]
<hendrik> kymara, no, i have given up on cleaning the bank thingy.
<durkham> so we agreed to remove guild and other unused things .	[20:21]
<Oslsachem> if bank could be fixed, trading between players would be very well
<hendrik> durkham, i'd ike to postpone guild to the feature section.
<arianne_rpg> Trade has not being done mainly because GUI lack		[20:22]
<durkham> ok
<durkham> we agreed on what then ?
<hendrik> arianne_rpg, i am sure that timothyb89 could create a gui if we had
	  the server backend.
<Oslsachem> I thought the problem was moving items between containers
<hendrik> yes, this seems closly related to banks.			[20:24]
<hendrik> about client stability: I am glad that it is so stable because i did
	  not look at it for ages.
<arianne_rpg> Yep							[20:25]
<hendrik> there are lot of things i do not understand without spending some
	  time on it.
<arianne_rpg> I feel temptations of revertings Chadf changes because I don't
	      know if his changes does anything useful or not
<durkham> i did spend some time on it
<arianne_rpg> the point is that now I don't have any idea where to look for
<kymara> arianne_rpg: his changes to the mvc design?
<kymara> i mean to moving to that design				[20:26]
<arianne_rpg> yes
<arianne_rpg> To move back to the old one, anyway I won't do because as
	      hendrik says... as long as it works :)
<kymara> durkham you're most close to client at the moment, can you comment on
<hendrik> instead of moving to the old one, we should think about how we want
<hendrik> as a big picture.						[20:27]
<MartinF> moving back to some old state might drop other usefull changes in
	  the client
<Oslsachem> "if it aint broken, don't fix it"
<hendrik> but if it is unmaintable, get it maintable.
<durkham> osl it is broken is so far that it is vera hard to maintain
<arianne_rpg> Personally I have no idea
<durkham> the client lacks :						[20:28]
<arianne_rpg> I have been concentrated on marauroa and I have skipped my
	      duties with stendhal.
<durkham> -clear handling of the threading for gui event handling , gui draw
	  handling , sound  and network stuff
<durkham> - MVC still even though chadf changed it into the right direction
<durkham> - modularity
<durkham> - avariaty of states is evaluated at different locations	[20:30]
<durkham> - dependcies are too close
<durkham> - probably the reporduction of the entity hierarchy from server side
	  is another							[20:31]
<MartinF> so really much to do... can we assign priorities?
<kymara> btw it is broken
<durkham> - tests
<arianne_rpg> MartinF: I think she is not done yet
<MartinF> sorry								[20:32]
<durkham> the client does not use object orientation as it could, but uses a
	  (word missing) approach					[20:33]
<hendrik> - adding dispatching for RPEvents
<durkham> procedural
<durkham> yes hendrik that is one of the things
<kymara> - fixing the bugs to do with 'client not updating' (see bugs tracker)
<durkham> there is a dispatcher but it behaves as a one line thing	[20:34]
<kymara> - fixing the bugs to do with losing text cursor thingy
<durkham> what we wanted is have the little windows moved out of the main
	  window							[20:35]
<durkham> noe i think i am done
<durkham> now
<MartinF> yes that would be good
<kymara> indeed many users would like that. can i correct to 'move away from
	 main map window'
<kymara> it may not be a floating separate window, but a fixed arrangement as
	 we've seen in some screenshots from tibia			[20:36]
<kymara> that's another possibility
<durkham> at the moment i am trying to write some documents on where i see the
	  things that are to be done to client.
<durkham> yes i like the tibia thing
<arianne_rpg> BTW did I told you that Tibia implemented deathmatch after we
	      had it done on stendhal? :D				[20:37]
<hendrik> yes								[20:38]
<MartinF> tibia like in this screenshot:
<hendrik> i don't know what Tiba is but i remember that you talked about them
	  copying deathmatch.
<durkham> martinf yes as rough idea					[20:39]
<kymara> so what you listed durkham, was stuff the client lacks		[20:41]
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<MartinF> so back to priorisation...
<kymara> yes
<MartinF> what is lacking most?
<hendrik> a concept of where we want to go.
<MartinF> :)								[20:42]
<durkham> i switched to needs without noting sorry
<hendrik> part of the problem is that there has been more than one unfinished
	  refactoring by different persons into different directions.
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    #arianne								[20:43]
<durkham> i guess most impotant and most risky is the event handling /
	  dispatching thing						[20:44]
<durkham> encapsulate the things gotten from server into a defined model where
	  client side objects can listen to.
<hendrik> yes, this is the part of RPEvents i have no idea for yet (as
	  mentioned above).						[20:45]
<durkham> i assume we can clearly seperate the events gotten by server from
	  the changes diff things.					[20:46]
<MartinF> hendrik: do you want to investigate it further before deciding
	  anything about it?						[20:47]
<durkham> i have an idea, but i dont have the knowledge on marauroa
<hendrik> ok, i think durkham and i should have a look at it sometime after
	  the meeting.							[20:48]
<durkham> yay
<durkham> if this is achieved i think we can clean up client side code much
	  easier							[20:50]
<hendrik> kymara, what is the next topic?
<kymara> preview invite
<kymara> <>
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<kymara>  1 - 100 of 673 rn. Will you Older
<kymara> Aug 13
<kymara> To: Henry, reis, Alessandro, ... (4)
<MartinF> about modularity and interdependencies in the client: does anyone
	  want to document the modules, how they should be - or how they are
<kymara> hm. not that							[20:51]
<MartinF> some architectural picture may be
<durkham> martinf yes i will
<kymara> my client went crazy :(
<kymara> Wiki reorganisations
<MartinF> ok durkham
<hendrik>	[20:52]
<kymara> i've noticed you have new stuff in the wings, hendrik
<hendrik> I think we cannot expect players or new  developers to find anything.
<arianne_rpg> We should end the stable/refactoring thing		[20:53]
<arianne_rpg> as the refactoring or it is done or never happened.
<hendrik> i did not understand that.					[20:54]
<MartinF> yes the old version numbers are quite confusing
<kymara> there is a lot of StendhalAtlas vs StendhalAtlasRefactoring, Quests
	 vs QuestsRefactoring
<arianne_rpg> hendrik: there are several pages refering to StendhalRefactoring
<kymara> ut it's more than that, the OPenTasks pages and particularly anything
	 that mentions Arianne (as opposed to marauroa) is very out of date
<hendrik> another point is to make clear which information is for players and
	  which information is for contributor.				[20:57]
<durkham> is here anyone with good skill in structuring things
<durkham> is there something like an attic in wiki
* arianne_rpg have to go... will read later the log. sorry.
<durkham> hug mini-mig please						[20:58]
<bleutailfly1> not to tight
<kymara> bye arianne_rpg
<MartinF> cu arianne_rpg
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<durkham> hendrik do you have already ideas on howto structure it ?	[20:59]
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<durkham> world definately has to do something about ihis connection
<hendrik> i started to prepare something, but did not have enough time to
	  finish it:
<MartinF> hello world :)
<kymara> that would be new main page, correct?				[21:00]
<Oslsachem> Perhaps we could assume that contributors are players who get more
	    interested about the project and are willing to browse less
	    visible parts of the wiki than normal players		[21:01]
<hendrik> and i moved some of the things on the page for contributors
	  to a subpage.
<kymara> i looked through this when i saw it in 'recent changes'. i think
	 splitting stendhal for players and stendhal for contributors is an
	 excellent idea
<MartinF> yep								[21:02]
<durkham> is it usefull to split contributors howtos into coder and pixel
	  pushers ?
<Oslsachem> bbl								[21:03]
* durkham hopes all know by now that pixel pusher is not dimnuishing the work
  done by the graphic workers
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    #arianne: "Aplicación Saliendo"
<MartinF> also a good idea IMHO
<kiheru> might need a third main section for server adminstrators
<kymara> How to be a GM should be in player prolly
<kymara> and yes there are adminstration pages and scripts for admin pages
	 that were never well linked before
<kymara> so as kiheru says maybe another section would be good		[21:04]
<kymara> but i think this was just a start by hendrik
<durkham> could gm and player be one , and server administrator another ?
<hendrik> yes, this is just a very early draft.
<kymara> and if we see things that need changing, we now know where to work on
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<kymara> rather than leaving it all to hendrik ;)
* durkham really sucks in wiki thing
<kymara> there are also discussion pages				[21:05]
<MartinF> so the structure would be:
<MartinF> Main  ->  Players / Java Developer / Picture Designers /
<MartinF> or:
<kymara> no
<durkham> picture designers is to small as group , and java designer is too
<kymara> stil contributors
<kymara> just the How To being split a bit				[21:06]
<MartinF> Main  ->  Developes / Players
<MartinF> Developers -> Java Developer / Picture Designers / Administrators
<kymara> no
<durkham> gameplay designers  versus coders
<kymara> main -> players/contributors/admin (i like)
<kiheru> code/other contributors can be under the same main group, but split
	 them at contributor main page
<kymara> with contributers -> code / gfx and maps			[21:07]
<durkham> yes
<MartinF> ok
<kymara> or code/gfx/maps
* hendrik agrees with kiheru.
<kymara> good that means you agree with me too hendrik i think ;)
<durkham> and me :-)
<kymara> hendrik i like this because it stops us having to revamp some of the
	 outdated stuff
<MartinF> a one voice consense :)					[21:08]
<kymara> which i'd have no idea about. and will strip wiki to essentials
<durkham> luckly wiki is more tolerant to ripping things into parts
<durkham> as the search will still find all of it			[21:09]
<kymara> it would be easier to keep wiki up to date if the people here who had
	 to *ask* questions because wiki wasn't good enough then went and
	 updated wiki afterwards					[21:10]
<kymara> rather than the people who *answer* questions having to do wiki.
<kymara> the people who tried to use wiki knows better where it fails
<kymara> </grumble>
<hendrik> speaking of that: We should change Stendhal startup message to point
	  to a "How to contact contributors" page in wiki instead of this
	  channel.							[21:11]
<hendrik> we can explain about IRC there and include references to the
	  Stendhal FAQ.
<kymara> ok
<kymara> i can do that
<bleutailfly1> good idea
<kymara> i eman teh startup message
<MartinF> may be make it a bit easier to submit new informations helps -
	  perhaps directly writing down the answers to some mailing list
	  instead of requiring to insert them directly in the wiki ?
<kymara> we have a ChatWithOtherUsersandDevs page in wiki
<MartinF> this mailing list could be used as a TODO thing for updating the wiki
<kymara> MartinF: do you mean asking the person who asked those questions to
	 do that?
<kymara> maybe
<MartinF> yes
<kymara> they could paste onto wiki discussion page?			[21:14]
<kymara> though i know i'm guilty of assuming that ability to get onto
	 internet === ability to edit wiki
<MartinF> yes that may on of the problems
<MartinF> mailing is a bit easier :)					[21:15]
<durkham> offtopic : before i forget: eclemma report for today :
<kymara> Also i have been frustrated as a quasi developer when stuff has
	 changed in code and the wiki not been updated			[21:16]
<kymara> i felt then it's the responsibility of the person who refatcored the
<kymara> since they're the only ones who know the 'new way'.
<kymara> i don't know what i think now
* hendrik is guilty of that.						[21:17]
<kymara> well i think the person who already did refactoring, did a lot of
	 work, you know? that's why i'm not sure it's their job either
<durkham> i learned information is a "hol - und bringschuld"		[21:18]
<hendrik> it is their job.
<durkham> which means the one who has info is the one who has to give it and
	  the one who needs is the one to get it
<durkham> in this case the dev are the ones to bring
<durkham>  and i am guilty too :.-)
<MartinF> i don't know if i am already guilty in this way ;)		[21:19]
<MartinF> problem is: i don't know all of the wiki content
<hendrik> the NPCs stuff is so outdated that i have given up on it.
<hendrik> there is lot of redundency.					[21:20]
<hendrik> and things at places where you do not expect them.
<durkham> so npc must be redone ?
<kymara> oh yes npc stuff is horrible
<kymara> well
<kymara> to an extent, the beginning stuff is ok
<hendrik> npc-documentation is about 2 years old.
<kymara> i've been keeping a bit up to date
<kymara> but now we have new npc - structure? (dont' know the word)	[21:21]
<durkham> i guess the howto setup stendhal server pages are mixed ?
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<BerserkerA3> hi
<kymara> it'd be good to document the possible behaviour types (which has
	 never been done_
<hendrik> ConversationPhrases, ConversationStates, ...
<kymara> yes that's not there hendrik you are right
<kymara> and Quests is very very out of date
<hendrik> apart from the outdated technical documentation (which i promise to
	  improve), i would like to get some information about in game history
	  there.							[21:22]
<kymara> but in better news i have completely updated how to add items and
	 creatures and growers (help with teiv from growers)
<kymara> hendrik do you mean like blordrough's dark legion?
<hendrik> yes
<kymara> or like 'semos village used to be the centre of our world..;
<durkham> yay kymara for doing that work
<kymara> ok
<hendrik> very simple draft:
<kymara> i thought that was great hendrik
<kymara> i like the idea of using temple for each npc name
<kymara> then when we do quests page for players we use that
<kymara> in fact many npc name templates can be extracted from the Quests page
	 (not how to make quests, i mean player info on quests)
<kymara> s/temple/template						[21:24]
<hendrik> yes
<kymara> i wonder if we can find some people to help with this
<kymara> perhaps some enthusiastic players
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<kymara> who are also techincally competent
<hendrik> Where is Osl?
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    #arianne								[21:25]
<kymara> he said 'bbl'
<kymara> we do have a small history page
<kymara> ooh look bleu							[21:26]
<kymara> see the deep rift at the bottom
<kymara> 'This great hole is said to have been made by a great arch demon long
	 ago.' <- your hell can go there
<kymara> speaking of which we should talk about worldmap development too
<bleutailfly1> oh yay
<bleutailfly1> would you want desert on top of it
<kymara> on top of a hole? no the sand would fall through		[21:28]
<kymara> i think your desert has to wait till hendrik lets us go onto the
	 other side of the mountains :P
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<bleutailfly1> that would be a way to enter hell
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<BerserkerA3> in which direction is the worldmap actually developing to? i
	      think to the south (e.g. fado) or?			[21:31]
<durkham> to the boundaries of what server can handle
<BerserkerA3> hehe
<bleutailfly1> would be nice to get the bottom of map evened out	[21:32]
<durkham> so we agree on the proposed change for wiki by hendrik	[21:33]
* durkham thinks word order got mixed
<MartinF> lol
<kymara> BerserkerA3: in fact there are some emptyish map areas
<kymara> and we should fill them before adding new zones
<kymara> that was the last thing hendrik said
<hendrik> i am afraid that the world map is getting to large for the small
	  number of players.						[21:34]
<hendrik> too large
<BerserkerA3> that sounds conclusive
<kymara> there are other ways to travel than walk though, i was thinking of
	 putting in a few more teleport orbs. to cut down some journeys if
	 people want
<kymara> and making city scrolls for some of teh new cities		[21:35]
<BerserkerA3> well, is the refactoring atlas up to date with maps that have
	      empty areas (interiors, etc.) ?
<kymara> unlikely
<kymara> not many people are coming and asking recently. i started that page
	 when it was too much to handle and we had to use it
<kymara> and i kept it update then					[21:36]
<MartinF> what about introducing some more time and magic adapted ways of
	  travelling like flying with a bird?
<kymara> but now it's not too many and also new interiors were being added
	 because people had suggested them way back, but never actually added
	 to world
<MartinF> just an idea :)
<bleutailfly1> could we put desert east of nalwor, might fit there
<kymara> MartinF: not possible to move faster than walking yet
<kymara> except by teleporting
<durkham> is there a means to have clicky polls on our wiki ?		[21:37]
<kymara> the new website has a means for clicky polls
<durkham> are we done ?							[21:39]
<kymara> well we shoudl revisit that first topic			[21:40]
<kymara> prioritising features
<BerserkerA3> bleutailfly1: mmh, i don't know. wouldn't this be to close to
	      everything? of course there is a small number of players, but i
	      think for a good desert there should be enough place to make it
	      big so the player also gets a "desert-feeling"
<bleutailfly1> oh it is big
<bleutailfly1> at least i think it is					[21:41]
<BerserkerA3> about how much zones do you think?
<kymara> i don't think we need rush place maps just cos they're made
<kymara> i'm worried about messing up history / world stories already with
	 putting places in that maybe dont' belong
<bleutailfly1> just throwing ideas out
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<BerserkerA3> right kymara. well there are two ways i think: 1. making maps
	      first and make a story that fits to the maps. or 2. make a story
	      and make maps that fit to the story			[21:42]
<kymara> fine but we must bear it in mind, to have a story.		[21:44]
<durkham> hendrik ? now guild ?
<kiheru> guilds seem a bit too early to have, until we have player classes,
	 and by that time the best way to implement guilds might be different
	 from now							[21:48]
<hendrik> timothyb89, ping
<hendrik> what do we need to implement guilds? or: What do guilds consist of?
<hendrik> i think this is not related to player classes, at least not directly.
<hendrik> from my (perhaps to naive) point of view, a guild mainly consists of:
<hendrik> - a name
<hendrik> - a group of players
<hendrik> - some way to join / leave a guild				[21:51]
<durkham> and a feature to dismiss people
<hendrik> - some way to invite / kick someone (which requires a kind of
	  priviledge system)
<durkham> sorry
<hendrik> no problem, i want you to add to this list.
<BerserkerA3> - maybe a possibility to share items (guild chest)	[21:52]
<hendrik>   - privildeges for this
<BerserkerA3> - a guild chat channel?					[21:53]
<hendrik> - a list of memberes (including offline once)			[21:54]
<hendrik> - kicking of offline members.
<MartinF> little problem: does this chat channel imply telepathy? i mean,
	  works this channel for long distances?
<hendrik> - creating and destroying guilds
<BerserkerA3> well, good questions if some kind of chat channel for guilds
	      would be correct to the background of the game		[21:55]
<BerserkerA3> - maybe the possibility for guilds to have a "guild house"
<durkham> this would be add on and not basic guild thing		[21:56]
<durkham> the chat feature could be preliminary done with a /chatguild command
<durkham> hendrik we can now store guild completely apart from any player
	  object , can we ?
<hendrik> similar to the arrest warrants.
<MartinF> so no postman is needed anymore:)
<hendrik> yes, that is why i am getting this topic back out of the box.	[21:58]
<hendrik> MartinF, postman does a lot more than just storing messages for
	  offline players.
<hendrik> MartinF, and i am not planning to rewrite this because it is working
	  quite well.
<durkham> as guild is nearly not done at all , we could take this as first
	  attempt to make full use of new features ?
<MartinF> but we don't need it to handle guild things additional	[21:59]
<hendrik> i would like to get the jail thingy tested first, but we can already
	  start to get a list of "requirements" and think a out how to
	  implement them.
<durkham> sure hendrik							[22:02]
<hendrik> perhaps a guild is an RPObject with has a name, a date of creation,
	  and a slot of objects
<durkham> shall i resurrect that xplanner page i had up a while ago ?
<durkham> you know that planning tool					[22:03]
<hendrik> those objects have a player name, a rank (access level, title), date
	  of joining, name of invitor
<hendrik> durkham, i hardly remember it.
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<durkham>			[22:04]
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<Oslsachem> there are two aproaches to guilds: decisions are taken by a leader
	    of by voting of its members
<hendrik> it may have the problem that it decreases usage of the SF tracker
	  which counts towards project activity.			[22:05]
<kymara> does it count if an sf button is put on teh page?
<hendrik> Oslsachem, could we handle the voting without program code?
<hendrik> no
<Oslsachem> no, of course not						[22:06]
<durkham> those guild members could decide on it and follow it . so yes it can
	  be done without code
<BerserkerA3> - if there is a leader of a guild, he should have the
	      possibility to replace himself with an other leader. (this is
	      for those players that maybe leave the guild and so the leader
	      can be replaced without deleting the guild and creating the
	      guild again)						[22:08]
<durkham> that would be the rank hendrik was talking of , if we gave the a
	  place on the forum where they could discuss on it , we would not
	  need to code it in first attempt				[22:10]
<durkham> if i agree you BerserkerA3 yre my master i would follow that	[22:11]
<durkham> the democracy stuff.
<hendrik> durkham, i think BerserkerA3 is talking about a leader who gives the
	  lead to another person.					[22:12]
<hendrik> perhaps as a result of such a discussion, or perhaps he wants to
	  quit the game.
<durkham> yes the king thing
<durkham> for the king thing we need code
<Oslsachem> but then you're assuming that there's a privileged member that is
	    incorruptible and respects the decisions of majority
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<MartinF> - a GM should also always be able to assign this guild priviliges
	  from outside in case the old leader disappeared		[22:14]
<hendrik> Oslsachem, in case he does not lead well, members can leave the
	  guild and found their own one.
<BerserkerA3> yes Oslsachem. of course if there would be a democratic system,
	      the leader should be elected
<hendrik> i think the opposite: All players have access level to change the
	  guild-name, invite or kick other members, withdraw things from the
	  guild chest will cause lots of trouble.			[22:15]
<durkham> uuhhmm yes							[22:16]
<durkham> and support would be very busy with that
<durkham> so we have to code it
<Oslsachem> in RL I think there are democratic leaders because it's
	    impractical to vote for each decision to be taken		[22:18]
<MartinF> that's a qestion of group size
<durkham> and they ooften enough show that they are not trustworthy and are
	  corrupt ....
<MartinF> btw - how many members are expected in a guild?		[22:19]
<durkham> as many as want to be ?
<Oslsachem> how many guilds would you expect?				[22:20]
<durkham> membership in several guilds or only in one at a time , would be
	  another question
<MartinF> i'mn just asking to get some rough impression
<hendrik> only one
<kymara> only one guild?
<hendrik> yes
<kymara> oh
<kymara> i thought the idea was many small groupd of friends
<Oslsachem> if you can be on several guilds, the meaning of guild and its
	    elitism is lost
<hendrik> sorry, only one guild per character.
<kymara> ahhh ok
<durkham> membership in one guild -> leave -> join another
<kymara> yes i agree with that						[22:21]
<hendrik> i think that guild size will range from 1 to a large number.
<bleutailfly1> i thought it was usually 4 player per guild.
<Oslsachem> because if you can be in more than one, you could be in all and if
	    one player can be in all guilds , then all players can be in all
<hendrik> please not tonight.
<Oslsachem> I think it should be 2					[22:22]
* durkham hugs hendrik
<Oslsachem> if not, by default every player will have his own guild	[22:23]
<hendrik> by default player should not be in any guild
* durkham agrees hendrik
<MartinF> ok, that's now clear						[22:24]
<Oslsachem> by default, I mean, what the player can tend to do
<BerserkerA3> would it maybe be possible to let those choice to the players?
	      for example: you can create a guild type A or a guild type B. in
	      guild type A you can only join this guild and no other way. with
	      guild type B you can join other guilds of type B but not guilds
	      that are type A
<hendrik> we may require a minimum number of player to create a guild.
<durkham> hendrik that would cause overhead in code  i think		[22:25]
<durkham> unecessary
<hendrik> BerserkerA3, i think we may have something like a group with the new
<hendrik> by group i mean a dynamic group of player for just one adventure.
<durkham> can we try to keep this still simple in some way
<hendrik> just collecting ideas.
<durkham> ok sorry
<durkham> i wasnt aware this is a brainstorm for guild, i thought we were
	  still busy prioritising.					[22:27]
<hendrik> kymara, in German we have a word called Brain-Storming. Is there
	  something similar in English?
<bleutailfly1> yes it is called brain storming :P
<MartinF> trying some definitio: a guild is a group of one or more members. it
	  can be founded by anyone. members can invite others. a player can
	  onle be member of one guild at any time.
<Oslsachem> the other are called parties				[22:28]
<durkham> party sounds good :-)
<kymara> indeed brainstorming
<Oslsachem> I think the point of guilds is creating some rivalry and elitism
<Oslsachem> If not, I can't think a good reason for them
<hendrik> hm, so we need to fix PvP first?
<kymara> fix in what way?
<durkham> i would think of having a group conversation that is apart from
	  public chat
<durkham> it could be a feature to show we are friends			[22:30]
<hendrik> allow killing, but without loss of XP and items
<hendrik> allow killing as in not fighting for ages.
<durkham> if i kill you i would def rob you too
<durkham> what would be the point of raiding another group if not for the booty
<bleutailfly1> i dont like that
<bleutailfly1> guilds should work together to defeat monsters
<hendrik> WoW uses something different for PvP: honor points, which is
	  unrelated to PvE.
<durkham> i do not either it introducces war
<kymara> what about loss of items from killed entity but only killed entity
	 can retrieve from corpse					[22:32]
<kymara> so he still may lose his items but the killers cannot profit from them
<Oslsachem> well, there's an implicit war declared against any living creature
	    in Faiumoni :)						[22:33]
<hendrik> kymara, i think this would encourage the killer to wait at the
	  corpse to kill the victim again.
<kymara> creatures already do hendrik					[22:34]
<Oslsachem> and you would deny the existence to the classical thief character
<MartinF> i also tend to the non-violent side: is it necessary to enable
	  killing other players at all?					[22:36]
<Oslsachem> Anyway before PvP and guilds are implemented the support
	    mechanisms must be perfectly tuned to face the foreseeable wave of
	    complaining users						[22:37]
<kymara> MartinF: it's already enabled					[22:39]
<MartinF> anyway - it's could be changed				[22:40]
<timothyb89> hello everyone :)						[22:41]
<timothyb89> did I manage to miss the meeting? :-/
<MartinF> hi timothy
<Oslsachem> and how much do WoW players care about their honor in practice?
<timothyb89> hello MartinF :)
<hendrik> timothyb89, could you start reading the log about one hour in the
	  past?								[22:42]
<MartinF> you are not too late for the last words :)
<timothyb89> hendrik: ok
<timothyb89> :)
<hendrik> 22:48 < hendrik> timothyb89, ping
<hendrik> 22:49 < hendrik> what do we need to implement guilds? or: What do
	  guilds consist of?
<hendrik> ...
<timothyb89> hm..							[22:43]
<kymara> after we're don eon guilds (i.e. when timothyb89 's had a say) could
	 we summarise and close up?
<timothyb89> some good ideas :)
<kymara> *done on
<hendrik> i think the first step is to get the data structure i described
	  above and then add features one step at a time.		[22:48]
<kymara> is this going to be a priority feature?			[22:49]
<timothyb89> true, I think there should be a relativly easy way to manage
	     non-player data. something like guilds would be nearly impossible
	     without this (as I learned while trying to make the original
	     guilds feature)						[22:50]
<timothyb89> as for the guilds system itself, I think that all of the
	     mentioned features should be included			[22:53]
<hendrik> it has no dependencies (after the ArrestWarrant / ArrestWarrantList
	  code is tested)
<kymara> so it is quite a safe way to test new features, is that what you are
	 thinking hendrik?						[22:54]
<hendrik> we should not aim for 0.66 but if someone wants to work on it, he
	  could start now.
<hendrik> yes								[22:55]
<kymara> ok, i guess it could be considered a priority new feature then.
<hendrik> it is getting late
<kymara> yes
<kymara> lets close up							[22:58]
<kymara> I will paste notes onto the wiki
<kymara> does anyone want to try to summarise what we covered and decided?
<kymara> i can attempt though i haven't scrolled back through notes	[23:01]
<kymara> First and last we talked about prioritising new features, teh new
	 features which became possible with mar 2.0
<kymara> putting these into game by testing them on new features with little
	 dependencies is a good idea so we do this with things like the
	 ImageViewer and guilds.					[23:02]
<hendrik> and we had the usual discussion about stabelizing code and
	  refactoring probvlems.
<kymara> ok that cuts a long stroy short				[23:03]
<kymara> *story
<hendrik> good night
<kymara> ********************** End of meeting *********************